Image by SpiritMama via Flickr
Want to get married right away? Don’t date a Canadian or European woman, argues Erika Kawalek at Double X:
I want to emphasize something about the difference between the state of affairs for women in America and in the rest of the civilized world. The competitiveness people bring to “dating” and “closing the deal” here is underpinned by intense economic competition and the desire—increasingly, the necessity—for basic social and physical security. There is a secret amongst the Canadian and European women living in the Big Apple. I know this because I am Canadian and my closest girlfriend is French, and when we resident aliens get together we really tear up this country and how it treats its women. (Our dating lives are fine and always have been.) When we talk about dating or the possibility of having family, with a man or on our own or with—gasp!—a coven of like-minded women (why not?), the conversation is framed entirely by the fact that we can count on our native countries to look after us should we—for whatever reason—not be able to make ends meet stateside.
Today’s “Oprah” show offered interesting interviews with women in Rio, Dubai, Istanbul, Tokyo and Copenhagen comparing their lives, showing off their homes, talking about the social and cultural values that affect their daily lives through each nation’s political and economic policies.
Awed by Danish women’s year’s paid maternity leave and four years’ unemployment benefits, among many other social goodies, Oprah asked: “It’s “socialism, isn’t it?” We call it civilization,” her two interviewees replied.
The Danish women said exactly the same thing as Kawalek — women there are in no rush to the altar because they know the state will provide them the economic security simply unavailable to Americans. I’ve been struck by this. I know many Canadian women, with good jobs, who own homes and have kids with their partner, who never marry. It’s just not a big deal and people who make it one are seen as a little odd. Living in New York, I’ve been with my American partner for a decade, but only our American friends seem obsessed with when we’ll make it legal.
If women had greater economic power, would this matter as much?
One of the greatest differences I seen in my 20 years living in the U.S. is this absolute obsession with whether a woman is married or not, engaged or not, and how soon she can get a guy to commit, buy a ring and race to the altar. As a result of this marital mania, I know some American men who live in quivering fear, not of commitment per se, but this unholy rush to seal the deal.
If every woman knew she, on her own, had lifetime free health insurance, a wider, deeper and stronger social safety net, college and graduate education free or offered for $5,000, would she really feel as compelled to grab a guy to rescue her?
Would guys breathe a sigh of relief?
Here is one more article where you have attempted to diminish Americans and elevate Canadians and other peoples. If we are so inferior, why have you chosen to live here for twenty years? I’m really quite tired of your antiAmerican droppings.
Please. The U.S. is decades (at least) behind the rest of the civilized world in terms of taking care of its citizens. That fact has never been more obvious, what with health care reform dying on arrival. In fact, maybe I’m being a tad hopeful with my “rest of” qualifier. “Behind the civilized world” might be more on the mark.
We simply aren’t keeping up.
oh, palavering, lighten up! I pay my taxes just like you. The strength of America is the ability to express all opinions short of hate speech, isn’t it?
The author of this piece and the whining women who responded need to get a life. There is no reason today for a woman to be subservient to any man! I know lots of women who have struggled with kids and bills for years; some of them got out of it fine, others had to swallow hard and care for their kids and sacrifice a lot. So, put your hankies away, pull up your boots and live!
You have to get past that Marxist mentality of yours, Caitlin. Canadians have “free” healthcare, but they pay for it. Look at the tax structure, of which I’m certain you are aware. It’s true in other countries as well. Instead of an additional tax burden on us, why don’t all you sympathetic, charitable people send money to the government monthly–or take care of your poor(er) neighbors?
My input, as a never-married 52-year-old man, would probably be next to inadmissible. If not beyond.
My response would read like, “Women are looking for men?” Wherever these searches are being conducted, I’m either invisible or not present….
Savio, women in their late 20s, early 30s, seem to feel tremendous pressure in this regard….as do those in their late 30s and early 40s if they hope to have their own children, i.e. not adopting. (not a value judgment, a fertility issue.)
Maybe you’re a little older than most of the men they are meeting, dating and considering marrying.
I’m surprised to hear you say this. Many women want to marry, even for the 2d, 3rd or 4th time.
The women who seem most resistant are in their 70s or beyond and may have had already a lifetime care-taking a previous husband. I know some who wouldn’t marry because they so enjoy their independence and privacy. If they’re enjoying good health, lots of friends and economic security — not to mention the paucity of men their age — the altar may look less appealing.
I think a marriage freed of the economic fears women may be carrying with them could be sweeter.
My hope is for someone my age. For a while, circa 1992, I considered women 10 years my junior, and mainly because fellow 30-somethings were all, “I don’t want a man in my life.” So instinct, likely, guided me toward adult females who seemed available. Not that finding *less* available women would probably have been possible.
Maybe I was supposed to “know” that these no-man-in-my-life ladies were recovering from hurt, that they didn’t really want men to exit the planet, but I took their words to mean what they said. I’m funny that way. I don’t expect people to express the opposite of what they feel unless someone has only five minutes to live and they tell them, out of kindness, “Fifteen.”
It gives me a queasy sort of feeling to realize that my first serious attempts to connect happened twenty years ago. What an anniversary to celebrate! I will report, however, that the searching process stops being a searching process well before the 20-year mark. Hope refuses to die–I speak as one who’s put out many a contract on it–but it can be humored. And, luckily, expectations ARE expandable. I delete them one by one, wishing I could get at their enabler.
A soon-to-be-divorced neighbor, the kind whom men line up to court, expressed astonishment that I’ve never (in her words) been snapped up. Too bad good references and high test scores and life experience can’t be redeemed for a love life. Or even the knowledge of what it feels like to go to dinner with someone.
You’re spot on. I’d even go so far as to say women wouldn’t be nearly as neurotic and perfectionist in their child rearing tactics as they are now, because a lack of a safety net makes them fear the worst for themselves and their kids. If you groom little Mary to head to Harvard from the time she enters pre-school, then there’s no chance she’ll fall through the cracks than if she goes to some “lesser” institution, right? (Judith Warner’s “Perfect Madness” describes this phenomenon pretty astutely.)
Thanks imho. There is such fetishization of marriage — the dress! the ring! — and not on the less-gauzy economic drivers behind the need for marriage for women to survive in a country where you can fall very far very fast.
One woman Oprah interviewed in Copenhagen was blunt and nonchalant on this point — as she pointed out, if you marry for pure pleasure, it changes your point of view on who you choose and why you stay.
The whole idea of “falling through the cracks” is one that scares many of us.
**GASP**!! Marriage for pure pleasure? Now that’s just crazy-talk.
savio, I’m hearing a “nice guy finishes last” theme here…? One of the stupider things young(er) women do is choose “bad boys” to date for the thrill of it all, which wears off fast. The culture prizes SEXY, when kindness and character are — if one is decently dressed and groomed — what make someone most attractive to many wise women.
I agree that women who’ve been burned can be skilled at rejecting. No one wants to be hurt or betrayed again (or again) and it’s easier to take yourself off the market than risk it.
Sounds like your lovely neighbor needs a dinner invitation from you, don’t you think?!
She’s out of my league, I’m afraid. Quite rich husband. A mid-life crisis is involved, with his crisis pretty much triggering hers. She’s worried–you’ll never guess–about her looks/age.
We live in the country. Their house (mansion) is behind ours. As if we didn’t feel quaint enough already in our modified 19th-century digs. “We” being me and my non-biological mom.
Said mom feels my problem is one of choosiness combined with a certain reluctance to get involved, owing to the horrific parody of a marriage I witnessed growing up (I wish I was exaggerating). She may be right. My younger sister has opted to have a man friend but not get in a marriage-type arrangement. Marriage sounds great to me, but then I’ve never been close to the possibility, so who knows how I really feel?
Re the bad boy syndrome, that may have something to do with it, too. As in, extreme annoyance with the status quo. I’m like that.
Anyway, thanks for answering. My case being so far out of the norm, it doesn’t really fit into the theme of your piece very well. I guess we can conclude that marriage is very important to women, but not so much as to compete with cultural stereotypes.
savio,hmmmm.
There’s a new TV show I’m thinking of blogging about on ABC called Conveyor Belt of Love. I watched it the other night expecting to be horrified but found it funny watching all the men desperately try to impress the five women within maybe 60 seconds.
I hate to say this, but the guy who led with “I live with my mom” got five thumbs-down before he could say another word. Unless one’s mom is deeply disabled and needs 24/7 care you can’t otherwise afford, women will wonder why you prefer to be there than out on your own. It signals, fairly or not, you are so broke you can’t afford a place of your own, which is a turn-off even if it isn’t true.
Not my place to judge, but any man over, maybe, 25, living permanently with his mom would be an instant deal-breaker for many women of any age. Not so in Italy and other countries where unmarried men often live at home for decades into adulthood.
I wanted to clarify that my “choosiness” is not in the looks dept., but (believe it or not) relates to smarts. Or lack of same. I’ve met women who were terrific people but ordinary in the smarts dept. I’m one of those rare men who isn’t lying through his teeth when he lists intellect as the chief thing he’s Looking for in a Woman. I capitalized that as a stock phrase.
Regarding my home life, I’d been on my own until recently, when I was fired from my job of 15 years for asthma-related absences. (My breathing has since improved a lot in our less polluted non-city air.) Eight years Navy, four college, fifteen (job), plus a total of maybe two years (other). And my non-biological mom, who is widowed and elderly, is the wife of a couple who took me in many years ago and provided a home base for me while I lived elsewhere (including Scotland and Japan). We’re close friends.
I’d have been thrilled to meet someone during all those years on my own, but it never happened. I know that, for many, it’s all about income, and that’s sad, but I once was young and rather bad-boy in the looks dept., with a college degree and world-traveling experience. If I wasn’t a good catch at that point, then I don’t suppose I would ever be, despite my living arrangements.
More to the point, the local economy is in tragic shape. My presence here prevents my close friend from requiring assisted living, and it gives me a warmer and more engaging environment that the ditch or street corner I’d otherwise be occupying. I doubt either way of life would look more attractive to those who would turn me down for losing my job. Here in the real world, things are quite rough, and that may explain the proliferation of such cold-blooded entertainment as you describe, in which anything approximating everyday existence is not only incidental but carefully avoided. The worse things get, the more people want to escape, and the media has never passed on that opportunity.
Besides, not living up to the materialistic requirements of the day is sort of a badge of honor for me, since I value people more than prosperity.
Savio writes well. His prose is thoughtful and complete. Yet, were I a woman, I’d stay far away from this man–he thinks too much and doesn’t feel enough. This is my view based on the information he provides, and not meant to be a criticism.
savio, I am no fan of cold-heartedness.
A “good catch” remains firmly in the eye of the beholder(s.) As the saying goes, there’s (usually) a pot for every lid or vice versa. It can happen at any age.
I wish things were going better for you in this respect. I do think, at 52, it’s way too early to give up. If intellect matters most and prosperity not so much, here’s a challenge…a bright (i.e. thinking) woman is likely to be ambitious and an ambitious/smart woman is likely to want an intellectual peer. The women I know do. That isn’t always as tidy or intimidating as it can seem.
One can wish for a decent life without being consumed by materialism. The woman right for you will appreciate your values; if no one, ever, ever, fits the bill….you have to re-examine the bill. Or just be alone and be fine with it.
We all know people, men and women, who can never find anyone. Some, really, just don’t want to.
Caitlin, I know scores of women [not all in the biblical sense])who are intelligent and motivated and who make a healthy income. I don’t know of a single woman, however, who is self-supporting, and who wants to live with an intellectual who does not work or who cannot deliver a fair share of the fiduciary responsibilites to the relationship. Of course, I suppose there are exceptions, but I doubt there are many.
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I doubt there are many women who are eager to be the wallet,so to speak, in a relationship with a man unless it’s circumstantial (unemployment or while in school) versus chronic/habitual. When I met my ex-husband he was struggling financially — as a med student. When a man isn’t able to pull his weight financially, it’s tough. A successful woman, like a man, doesn’t want to feel taken advantage of. Once you’re in a relationship, you’ve made your comitment, but it’s true — a guy without an income has to be
mighty charming to make up for that.
Some women love a lapdog, but not many.